[blml] Law 24

[John Probst]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ton Kooijman" <t.kooyman at worldonline.nl>
To: "WILLIAM SCHODER" <schoderb at msn.com>; "blml" <blml at rtflb.org>; 
<gesta at tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [blml] Law 24


>
>
>
>> For Ton and Grattan,
>>
>> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> We are trying for quite some days now.
> Declarer did not decide to wave any additional penalty. Given the option 
> he
> decided not to treat this card as a PC.

I think I'm going to weigh in against Kojak here. The specific act of not 
making the card a penalty card means that the declarer does not wish to 
invoke the lead penalties and play penalties specifically associated with 
there being a major PC. It does not in any way address the "extraneous" 
information which has been transmitted.

However the way we play bridge is by means of the calls and plays alone, so 
the information content of the exposed card is not something that the 
offender's partner is allowed to use.  We're not worried about how he got to 
find out about this card. There are two different processes which are 
entirely independent.

1) We don't want to exact play penalties for a MPC
2) We must address the general problem of some UI.

I don't think we can play bridge any other way. and I specifically haven't 
used law numbers here because the problem needs to be addressed as "How do 
we play bridge?"  cheers John


>
> ton
>
>
>>The declarer has exercised an option
>> permitted by Law WHEN HE BECAME THE DECLARER. Other penalties have 
>> already
>> been applied per Law 24.  He has decided that he does not wish any
>> additional penalties (Law 50 and Law 16) to apply.  The Law has stated he
>> has that option.  You now wish to tell me that the TD can go to Law 16,
>> decide that the "player has chosen among logical alternatives one that
> could
>> have been suggested over another by the extraneous information" and now
>> adjust the score?
>>
>> And please, rather than talking around the question, please answer it.  A
>> simple yes or no would be greatly appreciated. The Law told the players
> what
>> to do during the auction, the law told the players what could happen
> during
>> the play, and the Law permitted the declarer to not wish to penalize the
>> play of the cards.  Is there anything much cleared than that? Or is your
>> reluctance to accept the Law based on some sort of idea that the players
> are
>> dunces and the TD must play the hands for them?
>>
>> Again a yes or no would suffice to let me know what we are talking 
>> about..
>>
>> Kojak
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <gesta at tiscali.co.uk>
>> To: "blml" <blml at rtflb.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blml] Law 24
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Grattan Endicott<gesta at tiscali.co.uk
>> > [also grandeval at vejez.fsnet.co.uk]
>> > *********************************
>> > Haditha.    [;-( ]
>> > ========================
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Ton Kooijman" <t.kooyman at worldonline.nl>
>> > To: "blml" <blml at rtflb.org>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:18 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [blml] Law 24
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > What I really don't understand is how you can
>> > > ignore L16C when you allow the card to be
>> > > picked up. Seems utterly wrong to me.
>> > >
>> > > ton
>> > >
>> > +=+ If the exposed card is picked up Law 16C
>> > surely applies when the card was played or led;
>> > when the exposure was accidental* and not a
>> > purposeful lead or play, the information gained
>> > from it was made available by partner and thus
>> > subject to 16A. This is my opinion.
>> >                ~ Grattan ~   +=+
>> > (*or indeed purposeful but not a lead or play,
>> > if such can be the case)
>> >
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>> >
>>
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