[blml] Is ordinary Stayman no longer artificial? [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

[Jerry Fusselman]

[Jerry]

>It is not valid reasoning to say that a bid provides no information
>about a hand simply because there is more than one category of hands
>that can make the bid.

[Lamford]

The problem is that almost all bids including all passes provide
information, other than the last, penultimate and  antepenultimate
passes in an auction
that has been preceded by 7NT - Double  - Redouble. There are other bids which
are essentially forced relays, but even  these contain some information. Those
that play that, after a strong 2C,  responder invariably relays with 2D, are
still conveying information with the  latter "Sorry, pard, I don't have enough
to jump to 7NT opposite all possible 2C  openers."

[Jerry]

I agree with your assertions here except the first four words.  I
don't see this otherwise correct analysis as any problem to my
position.  Would it help if I mention that a *nonalertable* call can
be an asking bid and provide information?

[Lamford]

"Providing information" must therefore refer to bids that essentially give
information about the hand rather than request information about the partner's
hand or say nothing (such as forced relays). And common sense can usually be
used to decide to which category a bid belongs.

[Jerry]

I accept that carrying out a forced relay may well say nothing about
your hand, and it therefore provides no information.

Your phrase "which category a bid belongs" makes it clear that in your
estimation no bid that requests information provides any information.
To show how wrong this is, I can use one of David's examples:
1S-P-4N.  According you and David, 4N is an asking bid and therefore
it provides no information.  It should be obvious this is false, for
the 4N ace-asking bid shows interest in slam.  This guides the rest of
the auction.  For example, if there is interference, Opener will use
this information about partner's slam interest to help him decide what
to do.  For example, choosing 6S in1S-P-4N-6H-6S is likely, whereas
choosing 6S in the sequence 1S-P-P-6H-6S is rare.  Ask yourself why.
It is because 4N provided information about Responder's hand, even
though it is indeed an asking bid.

It is absurd to claim that no bid can ask and provide information at
the same time.

Jerry Fusselman