[blml] The new L27C2

[Wayne Burrows]

On 21/02/2008, Eric Landau <ehaa at starpower.net> wrote:
> On Feb 18, 2008, at 2:43 AM, Wayne Burrows wrote:
>
> > On 15/02/2008, Robert Geller <geller at nifty.com> wrote:
> >> Now I'm really confused by L27C1
> >>
> >> Let's look at L27C1 again......
> >> *************************************************
> >> C. Replaced at Lowest Level by Bid, Double or Pass
> >> 1. If the insufficient bid is replaced by a bid at the lowest legal
> >> level or double or pass that incorporates the information
> >> contained in
> >> the insufficient bid, the auction and play continues ....<snip>
> >> *************************************************
> >>
> >> OK, next let's look at the definition of incorporates.
> >> v.t.
> >> 1. to combine with something already formed
> >> 2. to merge into a single whole
> >> v.i.
> >> 1. to unite or compbine into a single whole.
> >>
> >> As an example, New York City (the larger entity) incorporates
> >> the boroughs of Manhattan, the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens and Staten
> >> Island
> >> (five smaller entities).    Or another:  the motor vehicle market
> >> incorporates the markets for cars, trucks, busses motorcycles,......
> >>
> >> L27C1 says the replacement bid must "incorporate the information
> >> contained in the IB."   This means the replacement call must be
> >> consistent with  ("incorporate") any possible hand consistent
> >> with the IB.   For example, after
> >> N       E       S
> >> 1C      (1S)    1H
> >> if the IB is replaced by 2H this violates L27C1 because 2H does not
> >> incorporate a hand with only 4 hearts.   OTH if the IB is replaced
> >> by NEGx this also violates L27C1, because 1H might have been
> >> 5+hearts with 10+ points, and this is not incorporated in the NEGx.
> >>
> >
> > I don't think this is what incorporates means here.
> >
> > A more restrictive 2H may incorporate everything in a less restrictive
> > 1H.  It matters not that 1H is 4+ and 2H is 5+.  The information 5+ is
> > incorporated in the informations 4+.
> >
> > Similarly the information exactly four hearts or 5+ hearts and 10+
> > points is all included in the information 4+ hearts and 5/6+ hcp.
> >
> > There may be other reasons why we would disallow these corrections.
> > But the reasons you cite do not seem to be sufficient to disallow
> > these replacement bids.
>
> Obviously the language in question is very confusing; here Wayne
> attempts to contradict Robert's understanding, but actually restates
> it.  Both are stating things backwards.
>
> "The information 5+ is incorporated in the information[] 4+" would
> mean that if you know that partner has 4+ then you also know that he
> has 5+.  It is the other way around.
>

You have a completely different understanding of information to what I have.

4+ is not more information than 5+.

5+ is more restrictive therefore has more information.

The information 4+ is equivalent to the information exactly 4 or 5+.
By breaking the information up in this way you can see that the
information 5+ is incorporated in the information 4+.

This also seems to me to be exactly what I would expect a law to
allow.  As then there is no additional information that would further
restrict that hands from the insufficient bid.

Wayne